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The Anarchist States of America
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Author Topic: The Anarchist States of America  (Read 7426 times)
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« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2009, 14:05:56 EDT »

Great, we can have incomprehensible discussion about him sometime.

Perhaps not now, comprehensibility has taken a bit of a beating at IRT lately.
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Heq
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« Reply #16 on: April 17, 2009, 15:04:30 EDT »

One of my exs (who is a metaphysician by trade) recently asked how it was possible for me to get even more boring then my presentation on the underlying metaphycial system required for voodoo.

I believe I have reached a point in my life where I would consider such a project "exciting" and "fresh".

I must find some way to surpass that moment of greatness (I once had a government Tax Accountant refer to me as "obsessed with numbers and deatails" and "Obsessive Compulsive"), one day I hope to get to the point where exactly one person is paying attention, everyone else having literally fallen asleep (having mistakenly thought such canny labels as "tekno-barbarian" meant it would be about something other then low-grade industrialism).

But yes, I agree it should take a break from the almost absurdly incomprehensable.  Freidman himself tosses off terms like the timing of minor philosophical works as if everyone knows them.  At least he doesn't trail off into Latin or German.
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"No common man could believe such a thing, you'd have to be an intellectual to fall for anything as stupid as that."-Orwell
Medivh
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« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2009, 00:50:51 EDT »

...I don't see an argument for why equality is "good"...

Equality in what sense?
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And if i catch you comin' back my way
I'm gonna serve it to you
And that ain't what you want to hear
But that's what I'll do
-- "Seven Nation Army", The White Stripes

So what you're telling me is that LTV's fudge factor means more than it's independent variable?
Yes...
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« Reply #18 on: April 19, 2009, 00:24:18 EDT »

In the sort of sense that if we all were equally good and had equal opportunities to do equal things.

The concept of a truly equal society strikes me as almost horrific, I am glad that I am better then my friend at numbers, and he is glad he is better then me at being urbane (I don't even know how to spell the word, you know, knowing what's hip, who's cool, all that stuff), as it gives us individuality.

If all people were equal all interaction would lose, to my thinking, meaningfulness.  What could I gain from talking to another if we were the same?

Equality is often called into being as a good thing in a toss away line, but it worries me a great deal.  I would like people to be equally joyful (as I would like everyone to be joyful, even if it is impossible), but I want people to be different as that makes people special to one another.

Really it's just the old Moist v. Mencius fight (for the Sinophiles), but I do feel specialness is a very important thing (and may be why I dislike those who deliberately avoid it).
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"No common man could believe such a thing, you'd have to be an intellectual to fall for anything as stupid as that."-Orwell
Medivh
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« Reply #19 on: April 19, 2009, 00:52:22 EDT »

See, I don't think that we're all equally good. I don't see this as a reason to punish those who aren't as good, any more than a meritocracy would by putting them on lower rungs.

I do think that everyone should have equal opportunities. I also realise that this is a pipe dream and the universe cares not for my sense of justice.

Interestingly, unlike most who propose new systems, I don't propose a meritocracy because I think I will rise in one. Far from it, I expect my trajectory through a meritocracy and through my current society would be relatively similar. Maybe a little better in a meritocracy, for I have social disabilities that hobble me in current society. I propose a meritocracy because it seems to be more fair to everyone. This, also, is a pipe dream because there will always be an element of "who you know" in any one person's position under any regime.
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And if i catch you comin' back my way
I'm gonna serve it to you
And that ain't what you want to hear
But that's what I'll do
-- "Seven Nation Army", The White Stripes

So what you're telling me is that LTV's fudge factor means more than it's independent variable?
Yes...
wodan46
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« Reply #20 on: April 19, 2009, 19:20:46 EDT »

Its been quite clear for some time that you have no respect for Obama, but recently I've notice you painting a rather dark portrait of him as a shallow totalitarian only seeking power. I don't hold the man on a pedestal, but I do agree mostly with his actions... I find it mind-boggling that you would characterize him so, especially since he typically tries to share power, be transparent, and be inclusive.
Take a look at this (by a liberal, I might add):
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/04/06/obama/

more specifically, note the highlighted passages:







That seems less transparent and more fascist.

Ok, its transparent now, guess png doesn't work or something.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_MnYI3_FRbbQ/SdpWQm0C10I/AAAAAAAABtY/Mt4T2bePBJw/s1600-h/obama1.png
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_MnYI3_FRbbQ/SdpW8V6WefI/AAAAAAAABtg/l5zXTMVKkFo/s1600-h/obama2.png
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_MnYI3_FRbbQ/SdpX9fxyfGI/AAAAAAAABto/M9Mc_7iWhbQ/s1600-h/obama3.png
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_MnYI3_FRbbQ/SdpYzLx8xAI/AAAAAAAABtw/-eN9k7DjIpE/s1600-h/obama4.png
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_MnYI3_FRbbQ/SdpaG-hb-iI/AAAAAAAABt4/r7yRnku7aZY/s1600-h/obama5.png
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_MnYI3_FRbbQ/Sdpapx0I_7I/AAAAAAAABuA/oAo4CVcjUwU/s1600-h/obama7.png
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_MnYI3_FRbbQ/Sdpb73TadLI/AAAAAAAABuI/aJfh_o3jEmM/s1600-h/obama8.png
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The plural of "anecdote" is "anecdotes". Not "data".
wodan46
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« Reply #21 on: April 19, 2009, 19:27:33 EDT »

The question for me is the reason one obeys rules.  If rules are obeyed because they are rules then that person was "built" to be a slave, and should be treated as such.
I don't think anyone actually does that.  All people simply seek benefit.  It appears to them that following the rules results in benefit, as does believing in following the rules, so they do.  They usually don't bother to think about why, and probably wouldn't gain any benefit from trying.  I do.  I follow rules because doing so is in my interest.  The reasons for why it could be in my interest range from not wanting to die, to wanting to fit in, to seeking economic gain, among many others.
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The plural of "anecdote" is "anecdotes". Not "data".
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« Reply #22 on: April 20, 2009, 13:48:32 EDT »

But yes, I agree it should take a break from the almost absurdly incomprehensable.  Freidman himself tosses off terms like the timing of minor philosophical works as if everyone knows them.  At least he doesn't trail off into Latin or German.
I was reading him today, he said:

"Therefore, we misconstrue what is ultimately going on in capitalism if we focus, as Hill does, on the impossibly demanding predicament of an investor or entrepreneur _sub specie aeternitatus_."

What on earth does that bit of latin mean?  I'm ok with "ceteris paribus" and "post hoc ergo propter hoc", but that's just going a bit far.  That said his stuff is very interesting and most of it is reasonably easy to understand if you know the material he's referring to.

The question for me is the reason one obeys rules.  If rules are obeyed because they are rules then that person was "built" to be a slave, and should be treated as such.
I don't think anyone actually does that.  All people simply seek benefit.  It appears to them that following the rules results in benefit, as does believing in following the rules, so they do.  They usually don't bother to think about why, and probably wouldn't gain any benefit from trying.  I do.  I follow rules because doing so is in my interest.  The reasons for why it could be in my interest range from not wanting to die, to wanting to fit in, to seeking economic gain, among many others.
Yes.

Quote from: Medivh
See, I don't think that we're all equally good. I don't see this as a reason to punish those who aren't as good, any more than a meritocracy would by putting them on lower rungs.

I do think that everyone should have equal opportunities. I also realise that this is a pipe dream and the universe cares not for my sense of justice.

Interestingly, unlike most who propose new systems, I don't propose a meritocracy because I think I will rise in one. Far from it, I expect my trajectory through a meritocracy and through my current society would be relatively similar. Maybe a little better in a meritocracy, for I have social disabilities that hobble me in current society. I propose a meritocracy because it seems to be more fair to everyone. This, also, is a pipe dream because there will always be an element of "who you know" in any one person's position under any regime.
The question is how do you propose to do all this making without disturbing positive forces at work in society to the detriment of society?

It is all far more difficult that most people think.  For example, the Guardian columnist and minor celeb Polly Toynbee often talks about this sorts of thing.  She wants inheritance taxes and progressive taxes, and so on.  Something she often misses is the reason she is in her position as a prominent political commentator.  She is the daughter or a prominent socialist journalist Philip Toynbee.  He was in turn the son of Arnold J. Toynbee a prominent socialist historian and author.  He was the son of Arnold Toynbee a socialist economic historian of the mid 19th century.  This relationship is shown on Arnold Toynbee's wikipedia page.

Each generation of this family has been committed to socialism, both in word and deed.  But each generation has paid for the education of the next.  It is likely that each has educated the next directly in many matters.  As a result the family have held a series of well-paid and respected positions.  Even the warriors against privilege are not immune from it's effects.

And, would the world be better if things were different?
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Blue Boy from Red Country
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« Reply #23 on: April 20, 2009, 18:20:39 EDT »

Its been quite clear for some time that you have no respect for Obama, but recently I've notice you painting a rather dark portrait of him as a shallow totalitarian only seeking power. I don't hold the man on a pedestal, but I do agree mostly with his actions... I find it mind-boggling that you would characterize him so, especially since he typically tries to share power, be transparent, and be inclusive.
Take a look at this (by a liberal, I might add):
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/04/06/obama/

more specifically, note the highlighted passages:







That seems less transparent and more fascist.

Ok, its transparent now, guess png doesn't work or something.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_MnYI3_FRbbQ/SdpWQm0C10I/AAAAAAAABtY/Mt4T2bePBJw/s1600-h/obama1.png
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_MnYI3_FRbbQ/SdpW8V6WefI/AAAAAAAABtg/l5zXTMVKkFo/s1600-h/obama2.png
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_MnYI3_FRbbQ/SdpX9fxyfGI/AAAAAAAABto/M9Mc_7iWhbQ/s1600-h/obama3.png
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_MnYI3_FRbbQ/SdpYzLx8xAI/AAAAAAAABtw/-eN9k7DjIpE/s1600-h/obama4.png
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_MnYI3_FRbbQ/SdpaG-hb-iI/AAAAAAAABt4/r7yRnku7aZY/s1600-h/obama5.png
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_MnYI3_FRbbQ/Sdpapx0I_7I/AAAAAAAABuA/oAo4CVcjUwU/s1600-h/obama7.png
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_MnYI3_FRbbQ/Sdpb73TadLI/AAAAAAAABuI/aJfh_o3jEmM/s1600-h/obama8.png

I will admit that this is an exception, however, I have sensed that pretty much everyone in the government is paranoid of letting anything from the wire tappings get loose. They probably have some list of potential or real terrorists that they feel is invaluable... Not that I'm excusing the behavior, but I'm not particularly disappointed or upset by it.
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Medivh
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« Reply #24 on: April 20, 2009, 23:50:14 EDT »

Quote from: Medivh
See, I don't think that we're all equally good. I don't see this as a reason to punish those who aren't as good, any more than a meritocracy would by putting them on lower rungs.

I do think that everyone should have equal opportunities. I also realise that this is a pipe dream and the universe cares not for my sense of justice.

Interestingly, unlike most who propose new systems, I don't propose a meritocracy because I think I will rise in one. Far from it, I expect my trajectory through a meritocracy and through my current society would be relatively similar. Maybe a little better in a meritocracy, for I have social disabilities that hobble me in current society. I propose a meritocracy because it seems to be more fair to everyone. This, also, is a pipe dream because there will always be an element of "who you know" in any one person's position under any regime.
The question is how do you propose to do all this making without disturbing positive forces at work in society to the detriment of society?

I don't. I accept that the problems are far beyond my thought capacity and leave them as an ideal to be looked toward and never met. Hence, pipe dream.

And, would the world be better if things were different?

It's certainly possible. I'd say probable, even.

EDIT: the perils of posting late at night. Corrected misspellings.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2009, 07:48:19 EDT by Medivh » Logged

And if i catch you comin' back my way
I'm gonna serve it to you
And that ain't what you want to hear
But that's what I'll do
-- "Seven Nation Army", The White Stripes

So what you're telling me is that LTV's fudge factor means more than it's independent variable?
Yes...
Heq
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« Reply #25 on: April 21, 2009, 01:25:18 EDT »

I agree with Med on that.

The current socialist movement suffers from the malaise of being a rich man's hobby horse for many, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't say things that maybe should be considered.

Opportunity is important, not the least of which because it causes people to want to work within the system rather then subvert it.  Oddly, I doubt it is in education that we will find our future as a society and as a culture (this is a whole seperate tangent...but...) and I think deep down that's what's plaguing the North American.  We've started to lose our sense of identity and place in the world, and with that feeling of losing ourselves the world has become much scarier to us.

Maybe it's different elsewhere, but much of the deep feeling of unease I see comes from that feeling of purposefulness missing from the lives of the citizenry.  One could call it an existential crisis of society, and I don't think "play your part, be a good citizen of the world" fills that gap.
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« Reply #26 on: April 21, 2009, 08:02:44 EDT »

The current socialist movement suffers from the malaise of being a rich man's hobby horse for many, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't say things that maybe should be considered.
Yes.  That is something that has got much worse in the UK in the past ~15 years.  The rise of political correctness has meant that trade-unionists have been sidelined.  The old fashioned class-warrior left can't go around saying rude things about everyone who's not working class.

Quote from: Medivh
I don't. I accept that the problems are far beyond my though capacity and leave them as an ideal to be looked toward and never met. Hence, pipe dream.
Fair enough.

Quote from: Medivh
Quote from: Current
And, would the world be better if things were different?
It's certainly possible. I'd say probable, even.
It depends how things are different.  Were people to be committed to the particular egalitarian ideals of the society of the time then perhaps they would.  However I think the more likely upshot of these sort of things is to induce apathy about creating opportunities rather than to open them to all.
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