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New subject to discuss: testing and storing infant DNA...
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Author Topic: New subject to discuss: testing and storing infant DNA...  (Read 5333 times)
jerseycajun
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« on: February 24, 2009, 20:58:20 EST »

Without notification or consent, that is...

You probably don't have to wonder what I think of this, but it is something different to talk about that doesn't involve smoking, pubs, or anything else we've talked about, at least lately.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2009, 21:00:01 EST by jerseycajun » Logged

"If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind?" — Frederic Bastiat - from The Law

"Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master."  -  George Washington

"Socialism, like the ancient ideas from which it springs, confuses the distinction between government and society. As a result of this, every time we object to a thing being done by government, the socialists conclude that we object to its being done at all. We disapprove of state education. Then the socialists say that we are opposed to any education. We object to a state religion. Then the socialists say that we want no religion at all." - Frederic Bastiat - The Law
wodan46
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« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2009, 22:08:41 EST »

OH NOES ITS GATTACA ALL OVER AGAIN!?!  Satisfied?  While benign in nature, the negative precedent it sets is very severe, so no.
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« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2009, 10:06:23 EST »

You don't have to wonder what I think of it either.
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Medivh
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« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2009, 18:49:49 EST »

That was a pretty poor attempt at making discussion really. You want something that's borderline; bad from your perspective, but could be perceived as a good from the right point of view.
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And if i catch you comin' back my way
I'm gonna serve it to you
And that ain't what you want to hear
But that's what I'll do
-- "Seven Nation Army", The White Stripes

So what you're telling me is that LTV's fudge factor means more than it's independent variable?
Yes...
Bringerofpie
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« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2009, 21:21:21 EST »

How could that be seen as good from any perspective?
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Set a new standard
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Step up.

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Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.21

Does anyone else get more liberal every time they take the political compass test?
Medivh
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« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2009, 22:05:18 EST »

That's my point: Jersey's picked a poor discussion topic because everyone will see it as a violation of rights, and a Bad Thing(TM).

Were he to pick a topic like entertainment classification and ratings? Something might flare up. As a topic starter, he could find an article about GTA IV and Australia. I'm sure there are similar kinds of things going on elsewhere.

(An aside: the Australian federal government, by not amending those outdated laws, has pretty much ensured that GTA IV will never make a profit in Australia. Everyone who wants the game, and who knows, or knows people who know, will have pirate copies three days after it's out.)
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And if i catch you comin' back my way
I'm gonna serve it to you
And that ain't what you want to hear
But that's what I'll do
-- "Seven Nation Army", The White Stripes

So what you're telling me is that LTV's fudge factor means more than it's independent variable?
Yes...
Heq
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« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2009, 13:04:13 EST »

I'm kind of okay with it.

I also like the world of Gattica, so there you have it.  I don't think human DNA is that special, and we do need to know more so we can survive the coming (whatever apocolypse is in vogue).

This is entirely because I want to grow a clone of myself in a vat and rip out the pieces as I wreck the ones I have now.  My clock is ticking so I can't be bothered with the worries, but I'm okay with forcibly harvesting organs and such as well.  You're dead, there is no more you.  If a man was bleeding to death on my lawn he has a right to my towel that I am planning to bury in my backyard.

I'm all for property rights, but the value statements here are just insane.  No cost to an individual v. lives saved.

Also, there is no property issue with corpses (as there is no person, and clearly a person before death is not owned), and I think it would be flattering to be cloned by the government.  Though I have my doubts they would even do so in a distopian future, as clones of me would be hell-bent on re-enacting the poker scene frm Gremlins.

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wodan46
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« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2009, 13:08:34 EST »

I also like the world of Gattica, so there you have it.  I don't think human DNA is that special, and we do need to know more so we can survive the coming (whatever apocolypse is in vogue).
The problem I have with Gattaca is that the society values only Nature, not Nurture, even though Nurture has a colossal influence on your mental and physical wellbeing.  As such, the society was hardly being scientific or realistic.
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The plural of "anecdote" is "anecdotes". Not "data".
Heq
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« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2009, 13:21:12 EST »

Well yes, but my old Nietzschian habits are still there.

We could eliminate the genetically weak and raise the median for our society significantly, I'm not sure it'd be moral, but the numbers certainly back such a play (over a long run).

Of course, as Nietz pointed out, gifted people tend to play less well with others and the truly well-constructed have a much lower need for society and as such, much less loyalty towards it.  Gattica, were it to come to pass, would quickly fall apart due to the whole 'herding cats" thing.

We need at least 50% of people to be semi-unquestioning, or the whole system goes belly-up.
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« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2009, 13:32:55 EST »

Wodan always remember that Heq may be drinking Tequila while posting.
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Medivh
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« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2009, 19:03:28 EST »

Also, there is no property issue with corpses (as there is no person, and clearly a person before death is not owned)

Actually, I always thought of it as a person owning themselves and being unable to transfer that ownership (in name) until death. After death, the corpse becomes a part of the estate, and is given to [the next of kin|whoever the will says].

Of course, as Nietz pointed out, gifted people tend to play less well with others and the truly well-constructed have a much lower need for society and as such, much less loyalty towards it.  Gattica, were it to come to pass, would quickly fall apart due to the whole 'herding cats" thing.

Gifted people tend to play better with other gifted people than with joe average. The problem is that the gifted are 2% of the population currently, so the possibilities of running into, and socialising with, other of that 2% is rare.

Were we to raise the median such that the 50% marker would be where the 2% marker is now, society would get along fine. There'd be fewer social skills, but less need for them.
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And if i catch you comin' back my way
I'm gonna serve it to you
And that ain't what you want to hear
But that's what I'll do
-- "Seven Nation Army", The White Stripes

So what you're telling me is that LTV's fudge factor means more than it's independent variable?
Yes...
wodan46
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« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2009, 19:24:09 EST »

Your society would be destroyed in a matter of seconds by nerd rage.  The thing you might not get is that many nerds are insufferable, you tend not to know them much, because, why the hell would you be associating with an insufferable nerd.  Imagine a society where about a third of the population are insufferable nerds that don't play well with others, and insist the world revolve around their private one.
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The plural of "anecdote" is "anecdotes". Not "data".
Blue Boy from Red Country
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« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2009, 20:42:56 EST »

I'm kind of okay with it.

I also like the world of Gattica, so there you have it.  I don't think human DNA is that special, and we do need to know more so we can survive the coming (whatever apocolypse is in vogue).

This is entirely because I want to grow a clone of myself in a vat and rip out the pieces as I wreck the ones I have now.  My clock is ticking so I can't be bothered with the worries, but I'm okay with forcibly harvesting organs and such as well.  You're dead, there is no more you.  If a man was bleeding to death on my lawn he has a right to my towel that I am planning to bury in my backyard.

I'm all for property rights, but the value statements here are just insane.  No cost to an individual v. lives saved.

Also, there is no property issue with corpses (as there is no person, and clearly a person before death is not owned), and I think it would be flattering to be cloned by the government.  Though I have my doubts they would even do so in a distopian future, as clones of me would be hell-bent on re-enacting the poker scene frm Gremlins.



I'm certainly not surprised that you would take this stance, Heq. It fits your style. Wink

I do agree with your sentiment regarding the overvaluing of genetic materials. To me, ownership is only meaningful when the owner can potentially derive something from it. I think its purely egoism to get upset because some one has a few tissue samples for your body (or your child as the case may be).

That said, there are definitely ethical ramifications to consider. Asking for consent to collect blood is largely a courtesy as far as I'm concern, especially consider the fact it will allow medical professionals to detect medical conditions that might otherwise go undetected until much later. However, not informing parents that the samples are being taken and how they are going to be used is troublesome. How can anyone ensure that confidentiality is being preserved if the process isn't open to scrutiny?
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Medivh
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« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2009, 23:13:13 EST »

There's also the problem that this could be the start of a mandatory DNA filing job such that police no longer have to get a warrant or consent for retrieving DNA from a suspect. On the other hand, I'm not sure that this is a problem; it isn't like CCTV whereby you're monitored every step of the way. On the contrary, you're only ever known about if and when your DNA turns up at a crime scene. Police already have good reason to want to talk to you.
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And if i catch you comin' back my way
I'm gonna serve it to you
And that ain't what you want to hear
But that's what I'll do
-- "Seven Nation Army", The White Stripes

So what you're telling me is that LTV's fudge factor means more than it's independent variable?
Yes...
Heq
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« Reply #14 on: February 26, 2009, 23:37:21 EST »

I guess I take the issue that it is the state's business to know the potential problems with children, given that society is on the hook if things go belly-up, and most parent's lack the expertise to know what's going on.

I'm not arguing for state intervention in all cases, but knowledge does not cause intervention.

However, if it comes to people v. technology I generally stand with the cold mechanics that have allowed us to conquer space and the rest of this planets inhabitents.

Med, Estates are an interesting thing.  I sort of believe that while one can give away something one has during a life, and that a will takes effect simultaneous to expiration, the core concept of an estate seems to create a fictive entity which does the will of a being which no longer has a will.

To be crass about it, no one is carry out someone's wishes, as that person is dead.  But I was heavily influenced by the aesthetics of Collingwood during my formitive years, so I've got a foe in the concept of the estate, as I think it has an effect on smothering art and technology.
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"No common man could believe such a thing, you'd have to be an intellectual to fall for anything as stupid as that."-Orwell
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