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[Blog] I do not hate you.
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Author Topic: [Blog] I do not hate you.  (Read 14118 times)
Heq
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« Reply #30 on: December 08, 2008, 19:03:08 EST »

To be fair, there aren't many movements which survive for long which expressly condone leaving the movement.

Generally why you don't see many gatherings of misanthropes.
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« Reply #31 on: December 08, 2008, 19:08:58 EST »

To be fair, there aren't many movements which survive for long which expressly condone leaving the movement.

Generally why you don't see many gatherings of misanthropes.

My brother once wanted to found an organization called "Misanthropes for World Peace", partially so that he could identify himself as a "card-carrying misanthrope".
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"If it had not been for the discontent of a few fellows who had not been satisfied with their conditions, you would still be living in caves. Intelligent discontent is the mainspring of civilization.

Progress is born of agitation. It is agitation or stagnation."
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« Reply #32 on: December 10, 2008, 11:05:26 EST »

Okay, as much as I love the philosophical debate here, let's get some facts straight.

1) While the leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints encouraged people to support Prop. 8, and there were many who did so, no one was forced to do anything about Prop. 8.  No one was forced to give of their resources, time, or labor to support Prop. 8, and there was no threat of excommunication for not supporting, or even working against Prop. 8.

2) As a matter of fact, there were plenty of Mormons who didn't support Prop. 8, and worked against it.  The most famous that I'm aware of is Barbara Young (wife of Steve Young), who actively campaigned against Prop. 8.  In fact, I would suggest doing a Google search just on "Mormons against Prop. 8", and you'll find plenty.  And, as far as I know, there haven't been reports of people being excommunicated solely because they didn't support, or worked against Prop. 8.

3) Finally, if you investigate the church further, you'll find that there are many people of all political persuasions on the full spectrum.  A good example is that you have a Democrat from Idaho who is currently the Senate Pro Temp (Harry Reid) and you have a Republican from Utah who is currently the senior Senator from Utah (Orrin Hatch).  It's safe to say that there are all sorts of Mormons who believe in different things.  Although, if a Mormon didn't believe in the Book of Mormon, would he continue to call himself a Mormon...

Anyway, while I'm all for a good debate, let's make sure that our facts are straight.
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Heq
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« Reply #33 on: December 10, 2008, 15:05:05 EST »

To be fair to Hatch, he's been a fairly good republican as far as the language of logical rights.  Whatever one's political position and his reasons for it, I consider the Hatch amendment to have been one of the very few really good piecs of legistlation during the Bush administration.
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"No common man could believe such a thing, you'd have to be an intellectual to fall for anything as stupid as that."-Orwell
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« Reply #34 on: December 10, 2008, 22:03:34 EST »

C. Cat, thanks for saying what I would say in a calmer and more reasonable manner.

The difference between Reid, Romney, and Hatch is easily observable--and yet none of them are excommunicated, although I hear that Reid has to deal with some sticky situations from some misguided members of his predominantly Conservative faith.  (Something like, a man of your political views should not be a worthy member of the Church.  This is NEVER stated by the Church itself--only stupid and nearsighted members of that faith.  I wish they didn't exist, but every group's got 'em.  Hell, I might be one of them--although I've never sent hate mail to Harry Reid.)

The only reason to leave a faith is because you don't believe it anymore, or never did.  If you believe it to be true, you stay and fix the problems.  If you believe it to be false, you get out.  It's as simple as that.

Yeah, there is societal backlash for attacking your society.  If you think that can be stopped, you should probably apply for citizenship in some other group than Humanity.
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Mormons for Romney kind of sounds like it might be a palindrome, but it isn't.
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« Reply #35 on: December 18, 2008, 13:44:25 EST »

Yeah, there is societal backlash for attacking your society.  If you think that can be stopped, you should probably apply for citizenship in some other group than Humanity.

Thus, when attacking American society by bashing gays, your church takes some heat. 

I do SO love the easy ones...
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« Reply #36 on: January 05, 2009, 16:56:49 EST »

That's why I view all religions as tapeworms on society that should be eradicated for the benefit of civilization.  Be thankful that people like me don't have the manpower to enforce our beliefs on others without asking like Mormons are currently doing.

I'm no fan of organized religion, but that's going a little far dude.
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« Reply #37 on: January 05, 2009, 22:19:01 EST »

That's why I view all religions as tapeworms on society that should be eradicated for the benefit of civilization.  Be thankful that people like me don't have the manpower to enforce our beliefs on others without asking like Mormons are currently doing.

I'm no fan of organized religion, but that's going a little far dude.
Kind of the point.  I was illustrating that allowing a faction to have their own private views of what they consider an ideal society be made into law is less fun when it isn't your faction, but the one who would enjoy it if your faction permanently stopped existing.

I can assure you, if there was a way to eradicate religion that wouldn't cause tremendous damage to society in one form or another, I would advocate that way.
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« Reply #38 on: January 05, 2009, 23:37:25 EST »

I can assure you, if there was a way to eradicate religion that wouldn't cause tremendous damage to society in one form or another, I would advocate that way.

Well, there does seem to be a strong inverse relationship between level of science education and level of religiosity.
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« Reply #39 on: January 06, 2009, 02:09:14 EST »

I must admit I see catechism in school as child abuse. Then again, I get very precious about things like tricking people into thinking that there's only one way. Or putting artificial consequences on going with a different train of thought.

Part of the reason for separation of church and state in most countries is because religion is the self-revocation of liberty. Because it's done by the self, it can be undone (in most cases). A state religion means that it's not a self-revocation any more, but a state-sponsored revocation.

Basically, I don't care what you believe until it interferes with someone else. Including your children. Hence the opening sentence of this post. "Your right to swing your fist ends before my nose" is agreed to by most. But the logical extension that many seem to think is wrong is "your right to believe ends before the point where you force me to 'believe'". Too many people assume that physical liberty is a right, but that mental liberty is shameful. The only reason to think this way is religion, because this line of thought is one of the very few ways that religion has of keeping people from leaving in and of themselves.

The logical extension of that is the ability to believe in contradiction to the evidence of your senses ("Atheists are all angry and mean! Christians are all happy and loving!"), and the inability to conceive of morality outside of faith. Removal of the "group" requirement kills the need for such a thought, as well as the groupthink.
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And if i catch you comin' back my way
I'm gonna serve it to you
And that ain't what you want to hear
But that's what I'll do
-- "Seven Nation Army", The White Stripes

So what you're telling me is that LTV's fudge factor means more than it's independent variable?
Yes...
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« Reply #40 on: January 06, 2009, 02:18:48 EST »

Unfortunately, I think we've got a biological imperative to this groupthink, and we quickly replace one religious movement with another (such as enviromentalism, which is quickly taking on a lot of religious traits) and merely change the cards in the house.  People enjoy submitting themselves to a groupthink (to a large extent), so to a large extent the negative realities of religion cannot be avoided.
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« Reply #41 on: January 06, 2009, 13:14:24 EST »

Unfortunately, I think we've got a biological imperative to this groupthink, and we quickly replace one religious movement with another (such as enviromentalism, which is quickly taking on a lot of religious traits) and merely change the cards in the house.  People enjoy submitting themselves to a groupthink (to a large extent), so to a large extent the negative realities of religion cannot be avoided.
Correct, of which is the reason why trying to destroy religion is pointless.  To do so would require people to stop doing groupthink.  However, religion can be contained and limited.  While all religions are viral entities that seek only to propagate themselves, some are more damaging than others, and the degree to which a given type can damage is highly variable.  By keeping religion out of schools, making it harder to indoctrinate kids, and encouraging the gentler religions (like Darkeforce) over the nastier religions (like Fundamentalist Christians).
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« Reply #42 on: January 06, 2009, 14:03:18 EST »

In Britain the gossip column of the Sunday Telegraph gives some interesting news.  As you probably know the highest group in an opposition party is the shadow cabinet.  On Sunday a member of the Conservative shadow cabinet had a civil partnership, this is the second member of that body to have done so.  This news was so significant it was relegated to the tittle-tattle column.

So, don't get too frustrated folks.  Change can happen here, and it doesn't require violence.
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« Reply #43 on: January 06, 2009, 18:02:20 EST »

By keeping religion out of schools, making it harder to indoctrinate kids, and encouraging the gentler religions (like Darkeforce) over the nastier religions (like Fundamentalist Christians).

Except that in many areas they are some of the best schools. I no complaints about the education I received at my private catholic schools (Marist tradition). My only problems i had with it are elements on all the current western school system, but reduces in mt school compared to others.
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« Reply #44 on: January 06, 2009, 19:26:23 EST »

By keeping religion out of schools, making it harder to indoctrinate kids, and encouraging the gentler religions (like Darkeforce) over the nastier religions (like Fundamentalist Christians).

Except that in many areas they are some of the best schools. I no complaints about the education I received at my private catholic schools (Marist tradition). My only problems i had with it are elements on all the current western school system, but reduces in mt school compared to others.

I've heard this is true in Mississippi. I also understand that Mississippi is something of a backwater. Correlation not being causation, I wont draw the conclusion I want to from that. But, as I understand it, indoctrinating children from an early age is a recipe for mindless zombie hoards.

Standard disclaimer: this is not to say that religious persons are mindless, just to say that religions have this habit of quashing curiosity, and an incurious child more often than not grows into a mindless adult.

By the way, wodan, I think you've come up with a contradiction. Good like darke, not bad like a fundie? Darke was spinning all kinds of fundie lines before the banhammer came down.
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And if i catch you comin' back my way
I'm gonna serve it to you
And that ain't what you want to hear
But that's what I'll do
-- "Seven Nation Army", The White Stripes

So what you're telling me is that LTV's fudge factor means more than it's independent variable?
Yes...
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