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[BLOG] Pity the conservatives
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Author Topic: [BLOG] Pity the conservatives  (Read 29192 times)
rogue-kun
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« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2008, 20:24:45 EST »

He was talking to me, Medivh. Not Wodan.

Crap. That's my face red. Tongue

Well we not going to make you bottom red over it Wink
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jerseycajun
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« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2008, 20:32:47 EST »

He was talking to me, Medivh. Not Wodan.

You've never been offered the Devil's choice, have you?

Assuming Medivh is correct, and conservatives considered Bush the "lesser of two evils", it doesn't make me any more sympathetic. By voting for him, they gave their stamp of approval to everything he had done and was going to continue doing. How precisely four more years of an unjust, illegal war, crushing civil liberties, and tearing the constitution to pieces constitutes the less of two evils, however, is beyond me, particularly when Kerry was nowhere near as liberal as Obama. Unless, perhaps, it's more than just the neoconservatives who believe in those things?

I have the personal shame of having been one of these people, and I can speak from personal experience on this - I must have stood in front of my 2004 presidential ballot for a good ten - plus minutes agonizing over it.  I've never had that happen before at the polls.  It's clear cut for you because the opposing candidate already is much more in line with your thinking.  Much of the Democratic party platform represents to me a violation of the Constitution (note, that's just how I see it and I really don't want to argue the point right now - just accept that we're going to strongly disagree here - with the understanding that how we see it is going to color and inform how we make decisions).  Even the Bluest of the Blue dogs in the congress, if they stray at all from the left wing of the party only veer more towards neoconservative.

It took time for me, and many others to essentially "give up" on the Republicans entirely - and if it took us longer, remember that you had a shorter distance to travel to get there than we did.
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"If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind?" — Frederic Bastiat - from The Law

"Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master."  -  George Washington

"Socialism, like the ancient ideas from which it springs, confuses the distinction between government and society. As a result of this, every time we object to a thing being done by government, the socialists conclude that we object to its being done at all. We disapprove of state education. Then the socialists say that we are opposed to any education. We object to a state religion. Then the socialists say that we want no religion at all." - Frederic Bastiat - The Law
wodan46
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« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2008, 20:41:52 EST »

Both Democrats and Republicans want to redefine/extend/stretch/violate the constitution to some extent in order to carry out the goals.  The difference is that one wants to do so to help poor people, the other to torture and carpet bomb people in the pursuit of imaginary bogeymen even as they cause real bogeymen to become more numerous.
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Blue Boy from Red Country
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« Reply #18 on: November 06, 2008, 20:51:29 EST »

Seagull, why should we pity used asswipes? At all?

Because they're are fellow citizcens... and for some of us, like me, friends and family?

It was kind of funny... my Mom and I were talking on the phone. She asked me if I was ready, warning me to get ready. I think she forgot that I actually support Democrats. XD

I try to be more compassionate about the whole Bush re-election. I have no love for the man and its really disappointing that he managed to get a second term. But I also realize that many people are too focused on the concerns of their daily lives to really get involved and become informed; they're more prone to be mislead or make ppor judgements simply due to a lack of any direct knowledge. I think many people just weren't willing in 2004 to admit just how bad Bush was.

As for picking Bush as the lesser of two evils, however, I'm not sure if I can be sympathetic of that...
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The Dude
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« Reply #19 on: November 06, 2008, 20:59:19 EST »

Considering the amount of pent up venom and frustration I see here, that will be given release under a Democratic administration, it would seem some conservatives have good reason to be afraid.  It certainly doesn't excuse the excesses of the Bush years, but it's hard to fault people for being worried when they're being told that their beliefs are going to be sunk into a grave from which there is no hope of resurrection.
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wodan46
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« Reply #20 on: November 06, 2008, 21:10:35 EST »

We wish to implement many of the same things Republicans want, just, you know, in a manner that actually resembles coherent and rational problem solving.  Outside of social affairs, Democrats and Republicans merely argue about approaches to dealing with things.  For example, Republicans believe the way to fight terrorism is to get 100s of thousands of civilians killed in a country that actually opposed the terrorists, whereas Democrats think that perhaps we could, you know, not antagonize the ENTIRE F***ING PLANET.
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jerseycajun
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« Reply #21 on: November 06, 2008, 21:13:18 EST »

Both Democrats and Republicans want to redefine/extend/stretch/violate the constitution to some extent in order to carry out the goals.  The difference is that one wants to do so to help poor people, the other to torture and carpet bomb people in the pursuit of imaginary bogeymen even as they cause real bogeymen to become more numerous.

When you stretch, break or otherwise try to circumvent the rules, the floodgates are open.  The goals are irrelevant as even the "other side" sees themselves as doing it for noble reasons, which is why whether they're "your" noble goals or "someone elses's", neither can be tolerated as excusable - it's all based on what the individual sees as noble.

The rules don't exist for when things are going well and the temptation to violate them for any perceived good is low (when poverty is low, economies are good and times are peaceful) they're there for when the temptation to do good by breaking the rules is the greatest.
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"If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind?" — Frederic Bastiat - from The Law

"Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master."  -  George Washington

"Socialism, like the ancient ideas from which it springs, confuses the distinction between government and society. As a result of this, every time we object to a thing being done by government, the socialists conclude that we object to its being done at all. We disapprove of state education. Then the socialists say that we are opposed to any education. We object to a state religion. Then the socialists say that we want no religion at all." - Frederic Bastiat - The Law
joshbrenton
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« Reply #22 on: November 06, 2008, 21:14:37 EST »

Seagull, why should we pity used asswipes? At all?

Because they're are fellow citizcens... and for some of us, like me, friends and family?

It was kind of funny... my Mom and I were talking on the phone. She asked me if I was ready, warning me to get ready. I think she forgot that I actually support Democrats. XD

I try to be more compassionate about the whole Bush re-election. I have no love for the man and its really disappointing that he managed to get a second term. But I also realize that many people are too focused on the concerns of their daily lives to really get involved and become informed; they're more prone to be mislead or make ppor judgements simply due to a lack of any direct knowledge. I think many people just weren't willing in 2004 to admit just how bad Bush was.

You're tuned in to the same level I am, Blue boy. What bothers me is that a lot of people here seem to show outright hatred towards people with conservative viewpoints. I do not hate those who have differing political ideologies (provided they're not promoting violence or prejudice.) I may disagree with them, I may engage in discussion to understand their position and present my own, but I will not belittle or degrade them simply because our opinions vary. And I think that's something a lot of people on the left and the right need to learn to do.
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wodan46
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« Reply #23 on: November 06, 2008, 21:29:05 EST »

For clarification, I dislike only the Neocons.  However, the Conservative Moderates let the Neocons wrest control from their party, and be their representatives, and the Neocons have been encouraging the party as a whole to emphasize its worst aspects.  You know, MAYBE if the Libertarians had tried to change the party from within rather than giving up on negotiation altogether, maybe those representing more classical small government conservatism would've been leading the Conservative party, rather than the Neocons.

Neocons: Big government, but for helping private interests and war funding, opposes social freedom
Classical Conservatives: Small government, opposes social freedom
Neoliberal: Small goverment, supports social freedom
Liberal: Big government, but for helping economically, supports social freedom

Personally, I'd prefer the political game field to be between Neoliberals and Liberals, where the discussion is about how large the government should be, rather than about whether the government should be helping or persecuting people.
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rogue-kun
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« Reply #24 on: November 06, 2008, 21:37:35 EST »

But I also realize that many people are too focused on the concerns of their daily lives to really get involved and become informed; they're more prone to be mislead or make ppor judgements simply due to a lack of any direct knowledge. I think many people just weren't willing in 2004 to admit just how bad Bush was.

or as The Onion phrased it: the country finally got screwed up enough that we can actually move forward.
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 It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the dew of the mountain that thoughts acquire speed; the hands acquire shakes; the shakes become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
Economic Left/Right: -7.38 | Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.79
This message is encoded with ROT26. Decoding is punishable by law under the DMCA.
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rogue-kun
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« Reply #25 on: November 06, 2008, 21:43:20 EST »

Considering the amount of pent up venom and frustration I see here, that will be given release under a Democratic administration, it would seem some conservatives have good reason to be afraid.  It certainly doesn't excuse the excesses of the Bush years, but it's hard to fault people for being worried when they're being told that their beliefs are going to be sunk into a grave from which there is no hope of resurrection.

Neocovers should be scared. Conserved have nothing to fear, they are needed to get things done. What we are lashing out at is excesses of the bush year only, because we got to clean up the base the made simple to get back what we once had, expend the political capital that could have been better spent moving forward.
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 It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the dew of the mountain that thoughts acquire speed; the hands acquire shakes; the shakes become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
Economic Left/Right: -7.38 | Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.79
This message is encoded with ROT26. Decoding is punishable by law under the DMCA.
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« Reply #26 on: November 06, 2008, 23:59:28 EST »

To be honest, i'm really irritated by the arrogant attitude people are taking over Obama's victory. What the hell is the point of rubbing it in people's faces? Conservatives are already disappointed at best, self-destructing at worst. There's a fine line between being excited about a victory and just being a childish jerk about it. McCain has been very gracious and humble in his defeat, we should do the same in our victory.
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« Reply #27 on: November 07, 2008, 00:15:00 EST »

Quote from: Barrack Obama
Now even as we speak, there are those who are preparing to divide us -- the spin masters, the negative ad peddlers who embrace the politics of "anything goes." Well, I say to them tonight, there is not a liberal America and a conservative America -- there is the United States of America. There is not a Black America and a White America and Latino America and Asian America -- there’s the United States of America.

This applies to the winning side as well.
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wodan46
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« Reply #28 on: November 07, 2008, 00:24:11 EST »

When you stretch, break or otherwise try to circumvent the rules, the floodgates are open.  The goals are irrelevant as even the "other side" sees themselves as doing it for noble reasons, which is why whether they're "your" noble goals or "someone elses's", neither can be tolerated as excusable - it's all based on what the individual sees as noble.

The rules don't exist for when things are going well and the temptation to violate them for any perceived good is low (when poverty is low, economies are good and times are peaceful) they're there for when the temptation to do good by breaking the rules is the greatest.
Unless you are as presumptuous as to assume that you have come up with the right set of rules on the first try, it is to be expected that the rules are and should be changeable, to reflect a changing society that progresses in directions beyond what was theorized centuries ago, or even decades ago.

Also, stop acting as if the two choices are between keeping the Dam shut forever or blowing it open with dynamite, when what we are really trying to do is create a spillway.  As for the question as to who will keep the spillway under control and not be dominated by the baser instincts of humans, the answer is that we are, those of us who are willing to act to seek higher goals be achieved.
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« Reply #29 on: November 07, 2008, 03:48:08 EST »

To be honest, i'm really irritated by the arrogant attitude people are taking over Obama's victory. What the hell is the point of rubbing it in people's faces? Conservatives are already disappointed at best, self-destructing at worst. There's a fine line between being excited about a victory and just being a childish jerk about it. McCain has been very gracious and humble in his defeat, we should do the same in our victory.

I couldn't agree more.  Let's be good winners over this, people, on the forum and directly.  America took a small step away from the extreme right by electing a moderate president and giving him a centre right congress to work with, that's all.  We have to remember that it's one victory in a long, hard fight.
That said... to our conservative, there were a lot of fears on our part that this election would be lost, again, to dirty tricks, fear mongering, and electoral fraud.  There's a lot of pent up fears and anxiety being released right now, so you'll have to give those of us who supported Obama (even those who did it reluctantly) a bit of time to gloat and celebrate.  We liberals and progressives are only human (contrary to the theories of people like Ann Coulter).
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"If it had not been for the discontent of a few fellows who had not been satisfied with their conditions, you would still be living in caves. Intelligent discontent is the mainspring of civilization.

Progress is born of agitation. It is agitation or stagnation."
     -Eugene Debs (1855- 1926)
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