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Author Topic: Choice libertarian quotes  (Read 80213 times)
Psy
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« Reply #945 on: December 29, 2008, 10:55:09 EST »

Wrong it was the combination of a carbine rifle and a submachine gun, the Germans were not stupid enough to design a weapon meant for long range fighting and using intermediate rifle rounds, the Germans designed the assault rifle to at max be engaging enemies at around 300 yards (which was the effective range of the Sturmgewehr 44). 

You've just contradicted yourself again. The problem terms are: "submachine gun", "intermediate rifle rounds", "assault rifle". Hell "intermediate rifle rounds" in this context is an oxymoron in and of its self. It's "rifle rounds", "intermediate rounds" or "pistol rounds".
Many people call intermediate rounds, intermediate rifle rounds try goggling it.  Also intermediate rounds are still considered rifle rounds, they are considered intermediate power rifle rounds.

People say "ATM machine" and "PIN number" too. Doesn't make it right. Automatic teller machine machine?

(BTW: goggling? Beer goggling? Tongue)
Yet it wouldn't be a oxymoron, it would make it redundant, Automatic Teller Machine machine.

Psy: While "ATM machine" is an example of a redundancy, it was meant to illustrate that common usage of language can still be wrong. "Intermediate rifle cartridge" is more like Starbucks "tall coffee" being the smallest size. Or the phrase "found missing".
Intermediate carbine rifles like the SKS and M1 carbine are still classified as rifles by every military on Earth,

The SKS uses 7.62x39mm rifle ammo, AKA 7.62 mm Soviet. The M1 uses .30-06. Otherwise known as .308 Winchester rifle ammo.

They might have an effective range of 400 and 500m respectively, but this is still too far for being labeled "intermediate". Intermediate ends at 300m.
Compared to rifles with over a KM range they are intermediate rounds as they have far more power and range then pistol rounds yet don't have the power and range of conventional rifle rounds of the era.

You don't get to classify bullets according to your own rules.

Concession accepted.
Look at wiki

"The Soviet 7.62x39mm rifle cartridge was designed during World War II and first used in the SKS carbine.

The cartridge was likely influenced by a variety of foreign developments, especially the pre-war German GeCo, 7.75x39mm experimental round,[3] and possibly by the late-war German 7.92x33mm Kurz ("Kurz" meaning "short" in German). Shortly after the war, the world's most recognized assault rifle was designed for this cartridge: the AK-47. The cartridge remained the Soviet standard until the 1970s, and is still one of the most common intermediate rifle cartridges used around the world"


Quote from: Medivh
Quote from: Medivh
also air rifles are officially called air rifles by many manufactures and dealers even though they have far less range then intermediate rifles.

Yes, but their ammo is know as "air rifle pellets". It's quite clear that bullets aren't involved.
True, and you also the term assault rifle being a official military term even though all assault rifles use less powerful rifle rounds.

"Assault rifle" is the official name, purely on the basis of a mistranslation from German. It should be "storm trooper's gun".

Again, just because common usage is a particular way doesn't make that way right.
Actually it does as English is not a dead tongue. 

Quote from: Medivh
Quote from: Medivh
That is because the term rifle only means a firearm a barrel that has a helical groove or pattern of grooves cut into the barrel walls.

Rifling refers to the helical groove. However, all modern firearms including pistols are rifled. "Rifles" are weapons that fire rifle ammunition. Rifle ammunition is defined as bullets that have an effective range longer than 300m. This is distinct from shells that have an effective range longer than 300m.
Even by that definition assault rifles would still be rifles.  Thus the term intermediate rifle still make sense as it is referring to a rifle that has a intermediate powered round.

Assault rifles chamber intermediate rounds. Rifles chamber rifle rounds. You fail.
Intermediate rounds are rifle rounds.  It is like saying compacts are not cars as only sedans are cars.


Quote from: Medivh
I was pointing out that fortifications during WWII either had to be by passed or be stormed with troops going inside the fortifications and fighting at close ranges. 
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Ihlosi
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« Reply #946 on: December 29, 2008, 15:44:14 EST »

It's more the "rifle" part that I was taking issue with.

In a military context, "Gewehr" means rifle, otherwise it means long firearm. You'll only hear the actual word for rifle ("Büchse") when talking to hunters or competitive shooters.

Quote
Then they'd slip out of the assault rifle classification, and into machine gun territory.

Not really, as they lack several features expected of an actual machinegun. They're much lighter (even a light machinegun like the M249 weighs 10 kg), they have small magazines (actual machineguns are belt-fed or at least come with large magazines to allow full-auto fire for more than two seconds before needing to reload), they're actually meant to be fired while standing, and they aren't built for changing the barrel in the field (something that an actual machinegun should be, as the barrel should be changed every couple of hundred rounds).

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rwpikul
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« Reply #947 on: December 29, 2008, 16:55:41 EST »

they aren't built for changing the barrel in the field (something that an actual machinegun should be, as the barrel should be changed every couple of hundred rounds).

That's actually only a feature of some light MGs, to make up for their limited cooling ability.  Heavier MGs can be cooled better and don't need interchangeable barrels.
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Medivh
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« Reply #948 on: December 29, 2008, 22:03:12 EST »

Wrong it was the combination of a carbine rifle and a submachine gun, the Germans were not stupid enough to design a weapon meant for long range fighting and using intermediate rifle rounds, the Germans designed the assault rifle to at max be engaging enemies at around 300 yards (which was the effective range of the Sturmgewehr 44). 

You've just contradicted yourself again. The problem terms are: "submachine gun", "intermediate rifle rounds", "assault rifle". Hell "intermediate rifle rounds" in this context is an oxymoron in and of its self. It's "rifle rounds", "intermediate rounds" or "pistol rounds".
Many people call intermediate rounds, intermediate rifle rounds try goggling it.  Also intermediate rounds are still considered rifle rounds, they are considered intermediate power rifle rounds.

People say "ATM machine" and "PIN number" too. Doesn't make it right. Automatic teller machine machine?

(BTW: goggling? Beer goggling? Tongue)
Yet it wouldn't be a oxymoron, it would make it redundant, Automatic Teller Machine machine.

Psy: While "ATM machine" is an example of a redundancy, it was meant to illustrate that common usage of language can still be wrong. "Intermediate rifle cartridge" is more like Starbucks "tall coffee" being the smallest size. Or the phrase "found missing".
Intermediate carbine rifles like the SKS and M1 carbine are still classified as rifles by every military on Earth,

The SKS uses 7.62x39mm rifle ammo, AKA 7.62 mm Soviet. The M1 uses .30-06. Otherwise known as .308 Winchester rifle ammo.

They might have an effective range of 400 and 500m respectively, but this is still too far for being labeled "intermediate". Intermediate ends at 300m.
Compared to rifles with over a KM range they are intermediate rounds as they have far more power and range then pistol rounds yet don't have the power and range of conventional rifle rounds of the era.

You don't get to classify bullets according to your own rules.

Concession accepted.
Look at wiki

"The Soviet 7.62x39mm rifle cartridge was designed during World War II and first used in the SKS carbine.

The cartridge was likely influenced by a variety of foreign developments, especially the pre-war German GeCo, 7.75x39mm experimental round,[3] and possibly by the late-war German 7.92x33mm Kurz ("Kurz" meaning "short" in German). Shortly after the war, the world's most recognized assault rifle was designed for this cartridge: the AK-47. The cartridge remained the Soviet standard until the 1970s, and is still one of the most common intermediate rifle cartridges used around the world"

And we all know how trustworthy Wikipedia can be.

Quote from: Medivh
Quote from: Medivh
also air rifles are officially called air rifles by many manufactures and dealers even though they have far less range then intermediate rifles.

Yes, but their ammo is know as "air rifle pellets". It's quite clear that bullets aren't involved.
True, and you also the term assault rifle being a official military term even though all assault rifles use less powerful rifle rounds.

"Assault rifle" is the official name, purely on the basis of a mistranslation from German. It should be "storm trooper's gun".

Again, just because common usage is a particular way doesn't make that way right.
Actually it does as English is not a dead tongue. 

Ah, play #1 out of the "I don't have a good argument" handbook.

"Ain't no way" is common usage. It's wrong. So is "ATM machine" in both respects. And "intermediate rifle round".

Not only is "assault rifle" wrong, it has all the wrong connotations about it as well.

Quote from: Medivh
Quote from: Medivh
That is because the term rifle only means a firearm a barrel that has a helical groove or pattern of grooves cut into the barrel walls.

Rifling refers to the helical groove. However, all modern firearms including pistols are rifled. "Rifles" are weapons that fire rifle ammunition. Rifle ammunition is defined as bullets that have an effective range longer than 300m. This is distinct from shells that have an effective range longer than 300m.
Even by that definition assault rifles would still be rifles.  Thus the term intermediate rifle still make sense as it is referring to a rifle that has a intermediate powered round.

Assault rifles chamber intermediate rounds. Rifles chamber rifle rounds. You fail.
Intermediate rounds are rifle rounds.  It is like saying compacts are not cars as only sedans are cars.

No, it's like saying compacts are pickup trucks. Or like saying that a pickup truck is equivalent to a B-double.

It's more the "rifle" part that I was taking issue with.

In a military context, "Gewehr" means rifle, otherwise it means long firearm. You'll only hear the actual word for rifle ("Büchse") when talking to hunters or competitive shooters.

So it does.

Quote
Then they'd slip out of the assault rifle classification, and into machine gun territory.

Not really, as they lack several features expected of an actual machinegun. They're much lighter (even a light machinegun like the M249 weighs 10 kg),

Not a feature of MGs. The "machine" part of "machine gun" is also a mistranslation from German, and simply means "automatic fire". Typically, this makes the gun heavy. But as you can see, this is not always the case.

they have small magazines (actual machineguns are belt-fed or at least come with large magazines to allow full-auto fire for more than two seconds before needing to reload),

While that's handy it's also not required. In fact, you can have a machine gun with a 2-round clip. It'd be worthless, but it's possible.

they're actually meant to be fired while standing

Then helicoper-mounted miniguns aren't machine guns.

and they aren't built for changing the barrel in the field (something that an actual machinegun should be, as the barrel should be changed every couple of hundred rounds).

M16's are built for this and are assault rifles. Clearly, then, this isn't an MG-only, nor required for classification as an MG, feature.


With all this, though, you're right that they're not necessarily machine guns. Technically, they're rifles, because the M16 is a fully-automatic assault rifle, making it a machine gun, but not a rifle. On the other hand, the M1 carbine can be a rifle, but not a machine gun. The H&K G3 is an example of a machine gun that is also a rifle.
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And if i catch you comin' back my way
I'm gonna serve it to you
And that ain't what you want to hear
But that's what I'll do
-- "Seven Nation Army", The White Stripes

So what you're telling me is that LTV's fudge factor means more than it's independent variable?
Yes...
rwpikul
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« Reply #949 on: December 29, 2008, 22:56:21 EST »

they're actually meant to be fired while standing

Then helicoper-mounted miniguns aren't machine guns.

To be technical, they aren't.

The Minigun, (it's actually a specific gun, the M134), is a type of Gatling gun, (multi-barrelled, powered rotary feed).
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Chakat Firepaw - Inventor & Scientist (Mad)
Ihlosi
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« Reply #950 on: December 30, 2008, 03:10:14 EST »

Not a feature of MGs. The "machine" part of "machine gun" is also a mistranslation from German, and simply means "automatic fire". Typically, this makes the gun heavy. But as you can see, this is not always the case.

Actual machineguns _are_ built to be heavy, so that they're controllable _and_ can take firing a couple of thousand rounds without falling apart. Look up a few of them, e.g.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M249
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MG3

and compare their weights to assault rifles in .308 Win.:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_G3
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_FAL

Quote
While that's handy it's also not required. In fact, you can have a machine gun with a 2-round clip. It'd be worthless, but it's possible.

If you tell a soldier that he's supposed to lug around 10 kg of metal that's usless, he'll tell you to do anatomically impossible things.

Quote
Then helicoper-mounted miniguns aren't machine guns.

I wasn't talking about them. You _may_ be able to fire the M249 while standing due to the relatively weak caliber, but don't even try that with a .308 machine gun. Or one of the vehicle-mounted .50 cal. machine guns, for that matter.

Quote
M16's are built for this and are assault rifles. Clearly, then, this isn't an MG-only, nor required for classification as an MG, feature.

But with a MG, soldiers may have to do it in the middle of a firefight ... and carry spare barrels. I don't think soldiers are usually issued spare barrels with their rifles.

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Medivh
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« Reply #951 on: December 30, 2008, 09:38:00 EST »

they're actually meant to be fired while standing

Then helicoper-mounted miniguns aren't machine guns.

To be technical, they aren't.

The Minigun, (it's actually a specific gun, the M134), is a type of Gatling gun, (multi-barrelled, powered rotary feed).

Fair call.

Not a feature of MGs. The "machine" part of "machine gun" is also a mistranslation from German, and simply means "automatic fire". Typically, this makes the gun heavy. But as you can see, this is not always the case.

Actual machineguns _are_ built to be heavy, so that they're controllable _and_ can take firing a couple of thousand rounds without falling apart. Look up a few of them, e.g.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M249
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MG3

and compare their weights to assault rifles in .308 Win.:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_G3
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_FAL

Since you've pointed me at the wiki pages for the rifles in question, you should note that they're classed as an "automatic rifle" and a "service rifle" respectively. Although, I think the FN FAL should be an automatic rifle also.

Quote
While that's handy it's also not required. In fact, you can have a machine gun with a 2-round clip. It'd be worthless, but it's possible.

If you tell a soldier that he's supposed to lug around 10 kg of metal that's usless, he'll tell you to do anatomically impossible things.

Hence the "worthless" comment. I'm not suggesting that a machine gun with a two round clip will ever be produced, but it's possible.

Quote
Then helicoper-mounted miniguns aren't machine guns.

I wasn't talking about them. You _may_ be able to fire the M249 while standing due to the relatively weak caliber, but don't even try that with a .308 machine gun. Or one of the vehicle-mounted .50 cal. machine guns, for that matter.

Still irrelevant to the question of "machine gun or no?"

Quote
M16's are built for this and are assault rifles. Clearly, then, this isn't an MG-only, nor required for classification as an MG, feature.

But with a MG, soldiers may have to do it in the middle of a firefight ... and carry spare barrels. I don't think soldiers are usually issued spare barrels with their rifles.

It's not common practice, no. But I've heard of soldiers being issued with spare M16 barrels in specific situations. Possibilities include having to trudge through water or the like in the middle of a mission, and guerrilla missions.
Logged

And if i catch you comin' back my way
I'm gonna serve it to you
And that ain't what you want to hear
But that's what I'll do
-- "Seven Nation Army", The White Stripes

So what you're telling me is that LTV's fudge factor means more than it's independent variable?
Yes...
Psy
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« Reply #952 on: December 30, 2008, 12:12:08 EST »

Wrong it was the combination of a carbine rifle and a submachine gun, the Germans were not stupid enough to design a weapon meant for long range fighting and using intermediate rifle rounds, the Germans designed the assault rifle to at max be engaging enemies at around 300 yards (which was the effective range of the Sturmgewehr 44). 

You've just contradicted yourself again. The problem terms are: "submachine gun", "intermediate rifle rounds", "assault rifle". Hell "intermediate rifle rounds" in this context is an oxymoron in and of its self. It's "rifle rounds", "intermediate rounds" or "pistol rounds".
Many people call intermediate rounds, intermediate rifle rounds try goggling it.  Also intermediate rounds are still considered rifle rounds, they are considered intermediate power rifle rounds.

People say "ATM machine" and "PIN number" too. Doesn't make it right. Automatic teller machine machine?

(BTW: goggling? Beer goggling? Tongue)
Yet it wouldn't be a oxymoron, it would make it redundant, Automatic Teller Machine machine.

Psy: While "ATM machine" is an example of a redundancy, it was meant to illustrate that common usage of language can still be wrong. "Intermediate rifle cartridge" is more like Starbucks "tall coffee" being the smallest size. Or the phrase "found missing".
Intermediate carbine rifles like the SKS and M1 carbine are still classified as rifles by every military on Earth,

The SKS uses 7.62x39mm rifle ammo, AKA 7.62 mm Soviet. The M1 uses .30-06. Otherwise known as .308 Winchester rifle ammo.

They might have an effective range of 400 and 500m respectively, but this is still too far for being labeled "intermediate". Intermediate ends at 300m.
Compared to rifles with over a KM range they are intermediate rounds as they have far more power and range then pistol rounds yet don't have the power and range of conventional rifle rounds of the era.

You don't get to classify bullets according to your own rules.

Concession accepted.
Look at wiki

"The Soviet 7.62x39mm rifle cartridge was designed during World War II and first used in the SKS carbine.

The cartridge was likely influenced by a variety of foreign developments, especially the pre-war German GeCo, 7.75x39mm experimental round,[3] and possibly by the late-war German 7.92x33mm Kurz ("Kurz" meaning "short" in German). Shortly after the war, the world's most recognized assault rifle was designed for this cartridge: the AK-47. The cartridge remained the Soviet standard until the 1970s, and is still one of the most common intermediate rifle cartridges used around the world"

And we all know how trustworthy Wikipedia can be.
So should we classify bullets by your rules?  Most armies classify assault rifle ammunition as intermediate rifle rounds since they have less range of the standard military rifle rounds of WWII, they are rifle rounds that are meant for intermediate ranges.

Quote from: Medivh
Quote from: Medivh
Quote from: Medivh
also air rifles are officially called air rifles by many manufactures and dealers even though they have far less range then intermediate rifles.

Yes, but their ammo is know as "air rifle pellets". It's quite clear that bullets aren't involved.
True, and you also the term assault rifle being a official military term even though all assault rifles use less powerful rifle rounds.

"Assault rifle" is the official name, purely on the basis of a mistranslation from German. It should be "storm trooper's gun".

Again, just because common usage is a particular way doesn't make that way right.
Actually it does as English is not a dead tongue. 

Ah, play #1 out of the "I don't have a good argument" handbook.

"Ain't no way" is common usage. It's wrong. So is "ATM machine" in both respects. And "intermediate rifle round".

Not only is "assault rifle" wrong, it has all the wrong connotations about it as well.
By that logic only the dead tongue of the old Kings English is correct.  Face it since English is a living tongue that is constantly changing.

Quote from: Medivh
Quote from: Medivh
Quote from: Medivh
That is because the term rifle only means a firearm a barrel that has a helical groove or pattern of grooves cut into the barrel walls.

Rifling refers to the helical groove. However, all modern firearms including pistols are rifled. "Rifles" are weapons that fire rifle ammunition. Rifle ammunition is defined as bullets that have an effective range longer than 300m. This is distinct from shells that have an effective range longer than 300m.
Even by that definition assault rifles would still be rifles.  Thus the term intermediate rifle still make sense as it is referring to a rifle that has a intermediate powered round.

Assault rifles chamber intermediate rounds. Rifles chamber rifle rounds. You fail.
Intermediate rounds are rifle rounds.  It is like saying compacts are not cars as only sedans are cars.

No, it's like saying compacts are pickup trucks. Or like saying that a pickup truck is equivalent to a B-double.
Yet in this context intermediate rounds are rifle thus the term intermediate rifle rounds.  Intermediate is to state that the rifle rounds in questions are designed for intermediate ranges.   Most armies have adopted this classification thus it is correct.
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Ihlosi
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« Reply #953 on: December 30, 2008, 13:48:23 EST »

Since you've pointed me at the wiki pages for the rifles in question, you should note that they're classed as an "automatic rifle" and a "service rifle" respectively. Although, I think the FN FAL should be an automatic rifle also.

Well, you can also take a look here:

http://www.heckler-koch.de/Products

... and see what a company that actually makes these things classifies them as.

Quote
Still irrelevant to the question of "machine gun or no?"

Machinegun: Heavy (>6kg), belt-fed or large magazine, intended for use in full auto most of the time

Assault rifle: Light (<6kg), magazine fed, intended to be used in single fire use most of the time, but can fire bursts or full auto if necessary.

Automatic rifle / rapid-fire rifle: See assault rifle. Politically correct / technical synonyms.
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Medivh
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« Reply #954 on: December 31, 2008, 21:59:07 EST »

<Concession, straw man>

<Concession, straw man>

Quote from: Medivh
Intermediate rounds are rifle rounds.  It is like saying compacts are not cars as only sedans are cars.

No, it's like saying compacts are pickup trucks. Or like saying that a pickup truck is equivalent to a B-double.
Yet in this context intermediate rounds are rifle thus the term intermediate rifle rounds.  Intermediate is to state that the rifle rounds in questions are designed for intermediate ranges.   Most armies have adopted this classification thus it is correct.

In that an assault rifle is a rifle. Maybe. But an assault rifle isn't a rifle. It's an intermediate range weapon. Most armies recognise that their assault rifles are not rifles and actually refer to them as "assault weapons", because they don't have a better name for them.

Since you've pointed me at the wiki pages for the rifles in question, you should note that they're classed as an "automatic rifle" and a "service rifle" respectively. Although, I think the FN FAL should be an automatic rifle also.

Well, you can also take a look here:

http://www.heckler-koch.de/Products

... and see what a company that actually makes these things classifies them as.

The H&K G3 is out of production and doesn't appear on their website. This is irrelevant anyway. The Democratic Republic of the Congo isn't democratic, despite it's name. Why should the vendor-given classification of a weapon be the truth, when they have much to gain by giving it a specific classification?

Quote
Still irrelevant to the question of "machine gun or no?"

Machinegun: Heavy (>6kg), belt-fed or large magazine, intended for use in full auto most of the time

Assault rifle: Light (<6kg), magazine fed, intended to be used in single fire use most of the time, but can fire bursts or full auto if necessary.

Automatic rifle / rapid-fire rifle: See assault rifle. Politically correct / technical synonyms.

Where's this from?
Logged

And if i catch you comin' back my way
I'm gonna serve it to you
And that ain't what you want to hear
But that's what I'll do
-- "Seven Nation Army", The White Stripes

So what you're telling me is that LTV's fudge factor means more than it's independent variable?
Yes...
Psy
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« Reply #955 on: January 01, 2009, 10:53:18 EST »

Quote from: Medivh
Intermediate rounds are rifle rounds.  It is like saying compacts are not cars as only sedans are cars.

No, it's like saying compacts are pickup trucks. Or like saying that a pickup truck is equivalent to a B-double.
Yet in this context intermediate rounds are rifle thus the term intermediate rifle rounds.  Intermediate is to state that the rifle rounds in questions are designed for intermediate ranges.   Most armies have adopted this classification thus it is correct.

In that an assault rifle is a rifle. Maybe. But an assault rifle isn't a rifle. It's an intermediate range weapon. Most armies recognise that their assault rifles are not rifles and actually refer to them as "assault weapons", because they don't have a better name for them.
Nope most still classify them as a rifle, they also classify carbine rifle that are chambered with the same intermediate rounds (like the SKS) as carbine rifles (since carbine weapon would be too confusing since there are carbine versions of most assault rifles).
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Ihlosi
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« Reply #956 on: January 01, 2009, 16:15:25 EST »

In that an assault rifle is a rifle. Maybe. But an assault rifle isn't a rifle. It's an intermediate range weapon.

Even for a "puny" round like the 7.62x39, the factor that limits the range is the skill of the guy holding the gun in most cases (i.e. as long as you're not giving it to a trained sniper). 300-400m is quite a distance even if the target is human-sized.

The H&K G3 is out of production and doesn't appear on their website. This is irrelevant anyway. The Democratic Republic of the Congo isn't democratic, despite it's name. Why should the vendor-given classification of a weapon be the truth, when they have much to gain by giving it a specific classification?

They can gain the reputation of being a bunch of lying, incompetent morons. Not something you want to have if you're doing business in that particular market and your products are higher-priced than most the competitors'.

The G3 may be out of production (it's an old, old model after all), but the HK417 is available instead.

Where's this from?

Occam's razor. There's no need to invent half a dozen different terms for essentially the same type of weapon with marginal differences.

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Ihlosi
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« Reply #957 on: January 02, 2009, 05:50:31 EST »

Oops, misclicked and posted a load of trash.
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Medivh
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« Reply #958 on: January 04, 2009, 07:58:31 EST »

Quote from: Medivh
Intermediate rounds are rifle rounds.  It is like saying compacts are not cars as only sedans are cars.

No, it's like saying compacts are pickup trucks. Or like saying that a pickup truck is equivalent to a B-double.
Yet in this context intermediate rounds are rifle thus the term intermediate rifle rounds.  Intermediate is to state that the rifle rounds in questions are designed for intermediate ranges.   Most armies have adopted this classification thus it is correct.

In that an assault rifle is a rifle. Maybe. But an assault rifle isn't a rifle. It's an intermediate range weapon. Most armies recognise that their assault rifles are not rifles and actually refer to them as "assault weapons", because they don't have a better name for them.
Nope most still classify them as a rifle, they also classify carbine rifle that are chambered with the same intermediate rounds (like the SKS) as carbine rifles (since carbine weapon would be too confusing since there are carbine versions of most assault rifles).

Uh huh. Sure. Whatever.

In that an assault rifle is a rifle. Maybe. But an assault rifle isn't a rifle. It's an intermediate range weapon.

Even for a "puny" round like the 7.62x39, the factor that limits the range is the skill of the guy holding the gun in most cases (i.e. as long as you're not giving it to a trained sniper). 300-400m is quite a distance even if the target is human-sized.

Effective range, the metric by which this particular classification is marked, is not reliant on the skill of the operator. 20m is quite a distance for a human-sized target, hence the enemy casualty rate being linked to number of rounds fired.

The H&K G3 is out of production and doesn't appear on their website. This is irrelevant anyway. The Democratic Republic of the Congo isn't democratic, despite it's name. Why should the vendor-given classification of a weapon be the truth, when they have much to gain by giving it a specific classification?

They can gain the reputation of being a bunch of lying, incompetent morons. Not something you want to have if you're doing business in that particular market and your products are higher-priced than most the competitors'.

They already trade off reputation as being good manufacturers. So what you get is people who don't know look at the website, and get told the lie. Such people are more impressed with "assault rifles" than with "automatic rifles". People who do know don't bother with the website because they have a guy they talk to. No harm done and potential gain.

That, and apparently H&K want the MG page to be purely for the MG4 series.

The G3 may be out of production (it's an old, old model after all), but the HK417 is available instead.

The H&K HK417 is listed on Wikipedia as a "battle rifle", AKA "service rifle" which seems to mean "selective fire squad marksman weapon". As in, it can be an LMG, but it's main purpose is single fire, long range usage. Specifically, they're contrasted with assault rifles, which fire much lower powered cartridges.

Where's this from?

Occam's razor. There's no need to invent half a dozen different terms for essentially the same type of weapon with marginal differences.

I've found that military-industrial complexes don't neccessarily make decisions that reflect common sense. Clearly, because of the short clip and the light weight, automatic rifles fill a different role than LMGs and HMGs. Thereby, clearly, they need a different classification.
Logged

And if i catch you comin' back my way
I'm gonna serve it to you
And that ain't what you want to hear
But that's what I'll do
-- "Seven Nation Army", The White Stripes

So what you're telling me is that LTV's fudge factor means more than it's independent variable?
Yes...
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