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Canadian seperatists unite!
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Author Topic: Canadian seperatists unite!  (Read 11985 times)
Darkeforce
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« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2008, 21:14:53 EDT »

Hmmm...My civil war history really isn't as good as it should be, but I was just looking to undercut the normal historical claim for a justification, thanks for the added 411.

Darke, I must say I disagree with you, first of all factually, as Newfoundland does not recieve equalization payments, and secondly, and more importantly, as a historical matter of course.  There has long been a Vive la Terre Neuve Libre, which, while poor french, even has a long standing flag.  It has become more popular as time has passed and a real possibility of seperation has presented itself, but the east coast liberationists have been around pretty much since the inception.

I don't know where in Canuckland you're from, but the Celtic(Irish, Welsh, Scottish)/English divide is an old and ugly one out here.  Made even worst by the fact that the churches in newfoundland were in charge of schooling until very recently.  Canada did not make good on many of the promises made to most of the atlantic provinces during confereration, but I would put the real cultural differences as caused by the poor airliner service and general lack of travel on the east.  The farthest many of my friends have been is Montreal, and to be honest, many of us who travle to bigger, more western centres find them rather disgusting.  I'm not sure if it's so much cultural as small town versus big city (personally, I like Toronto, but I find it to be too legalistic and yuppy for my tastes).

I cannot disagree that the seperatists generally see themselves as better, and to a large degree, I agree with that assertion, as I think loyalty to a country to be generally a very bad thing, and loyalty to a monarch to be utterly disgusting.  Any man or woman who bows to another makes themselves lesser, and no man or woman shuld bow to the Queen or her representatives, especially when one looks at the english empire and all the evil it has caused.

I would also add that generally speaking, big countries with authoritarian rule (as we have during a majority government), while very efficent, are also often the most opaque, and opaque,k powerful governments end up...*looks south*  It can end up in some very nasty situations.

I've got to call you on that. According to the Canadian Federal Government, Newfoundland gets equalization payments. (http://www.fin.gc.ca/FEDPROV/eqpe.html) If they didn't then there wouldn't have been an Atlantic Accord. The whole purpose of that was Newfoundland complaining that they didn't want oil profits clawed back from their equalization payments.

And there may have been a small movement wanting separation before oil was discovered offshore of Newfoundland, but it didn't become popular until the province started getting really rich.
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« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2008, 22:57:26 EDT »

http://bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=aNxNQR.eba4I&refer=home

Would be my counter, without a renegotiation (which may be in the pipes), it is unlikely that any realistic assentment of newfoundland wealth will cause it to qualify for equalization payments.  Williams can crow all he want, but I think the lack of clawback is the best he's like to get out of Harper, who stands to gain no seats in NL, but lose any chance of getting into Ont. if he's seen as bullied by Danny.

That being said, Harper's opposition to abortion, and increasing usage of religious and authoritarian structures make him repulsive to many of the old guard in PC circles, and quite possibly unelectable in greater Ont.

If our glorious leader of the red army was not so impotent the libs' could probably kick the teeth out of the Conservatives this coming election, but given the weak actions by all three leaders, no sort of real shifts in power are likely.
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« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2008, 23:03:12 EDT »

I would also point out, for those of you who are not of Canadian political stock, that he is absolutely right about the thin membrane between the seperatists and the old guard PC, many quebecois seperatists were working just months before for Brian Mulroney, and Lucian Bouchard is theoretcially a fiscal conservative (though I don't know how he gets his math together).  Which is wierd, because, similar to america, Canadian rightwing hardliners often wave the flag to drum up rural support, which always shows remarkable balls to me, as I have yet to meet a single east of Ont. Conservative camp in which , once you know the folks, one of the cogs is a seperatist.
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« Reply #18 on: July 17, 2008, 22:15:19 EDT »

http://bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=aNxNQR.eba4I&refer=home

Would be my counter, without a renegotiation (which may be in the pipes), it is unlikely that any realistic assentment of newfoundland wealth will cause it to qualify for equalization payments.  Williams can crow all he want, but I think the lack of clawback is the best he's like to get out of Harper, who stands to gain no seats in NL, but lose any chance of getting into Ont. if he's seen as bullied by Danny.

That article doesn't dispute that Newfoundland receives equalization payments. In fact, it corroborates my point. You receive equalization payments until an Act of Parliament removes the province from the "Have-Not" status. And in a Harper government, I see that happening about.... what's the current projection for the date of Doomsday?

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« Reply #19 on: July 18, 2008, 13:06:49 EDT »

I see no advantage in not doing so.  Harper may be an incompetent wuss, but hey, surely can look at the newfoundland ridings and say "Hmmmm...hearn is a dying old sot with no underlings of note....I stand to gain zero seats in newfoundland."  Were I him, I would use an issue like this, or the senate to press an election before we can get our lon knives into Dion and set up for King Frank.
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« Reply #20 on: July 18, 2008, 21:31:01 EDT »

Harper is two things: In the pocket of Big Oil, and Lazy. He'd rather just do nothing, than do something that actually makes sense.
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« Reply #21 on: July 19, 2008, 20:02:08 EDT »

I just assume he has a similar Cabal of hard working dirt flingers working on his side of the imaginary line.

Sloth shoudl show that if he stomps the Libs up now he'lll get another 4 years of sitting around looking in the mirror while they knife fight their way toa  new leader and rebnrand the party, but if he waits more then a year, we'll most like shank Dion in the Spring (if not before) and Gear up for a brutal 2009 throwdown without the internal movements seeking to lose the election (right now a good number of east coasters want Dion to lose so we can hoist Frank up as the great savior and get some sweet-sweet graft going our way, as opposed to more loot to the French), and when unified it is really, really hard to beat the liberal machine.
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« Reply #22 on: July 19, 2008, 21:32:47 EDT »

Bob Rae is the best choice for leader of the Liberals. He got a lot of bad press while Premier in Ontario, but all he really did was make the hard decisions to clean up the complete cluster-fuck the Tories had left us with. It hurt, and Ontariens punished him for our own sins in electing the Tories in the first place. Bob knows what he's doing, whether people realize it or not.
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« Reply #23 on: July 20, 2008, 13:06:12 EDT »

Leadership wise maybe, but mapwise, I don't see what he brings to the table.

Libs have three contestable areas (essentially)  Van, Ont, and the maritimes.

Maritimes always back their own, due to it's clannish nature, what they need is a populist powerhouse who is fluent in Chinese to come out of To or Van, but Rae is not going to carry over Ont. Loyalty.

There is a good case or him, but to steal a bush term, it'snot a slam dunk either way.
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« Reply #24 on: July 20, 2008, 21:23:05 EDT »

Rae has proven competence and efficacy. That's more than any other candidate brings to the table
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« Reply #25 on: July 21, 2008, 00:09:09 EDT »

If Trudeau, Mulroney, and Chretien taught me one thing. Never trust anyone east of the Manitoba/Ontario border.
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« Reply #26 on: July 21, 2008, 11:31:24 EDT »

Competance is only required to win elections after the first one, it is the illusion of competance that matters.  In fact, it seems to be the case more and more that the less proven competance one has in the area of governing, the more one can cherry pick one's history to create the image of an intelligent, centerist leader (Bush, Obama, Regan, Harper) with traits wildly divergent from who they actually are.  It is difficult to conceal who you actually are once you're in power, and this causes a politician to have to plant their feet and fight, rather then just dodging out of difficult issues.  Most big losers in recent electoral history have had governing experience which allowed them to be tied to an issue and shot at (Bush Sr., Martin).

Frank's big edge is that he can seem like a substantive candidate, but really, what he actually did was kinda...well...a failed idea.  The population however, glosses over those things, as recent leadership in the province has been so poor as to make him seem like a stand-out leader with no flaws.  He's got some ethnically diverse advisors and no real conscience, two huge advantages going into a clinch with Harper.  I think he's a winner as a Candidate but would be an middling-to-poor prime minister.

(no, I am not a Hillary or McCain supporter, though I prefer McCain to Obama it isn't based on experience, it's based on the fact that Obama hides from the press, which has led to such disaster under Bush and his obscurantist presidency)
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« Reply #27 on: July 21, 2008, 22:26:17 EDT »

If Trudeau, Mulroney, and Chretien taught me one thing. Never trust anyone east of the Manitoba/Ontario border.

I'll definitely take Trudeau and Chretien over Harper. And Mulroney was totally West Coast. I don't know what you're talking about.
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« Reply #28 on: July 21, 2008, 22:29:03 EDT »

(no, I am not a Hillary or McCain supporter, though I prefer McCain to Obama it isn't based on experience, it's based on the fact that Obama hides from the press, which has led to such disaster under Bush and his obscurantist presidency)

Hides from the press? Gee, that must be why I'm constantly seeing press reports of him giving speeches. He doesn't hide anymore than McCain does.
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« Reply #29 on: July 22, 2008, 01:48:28 EDT »

They both hide, it's a question of how far back they do so.  Obama -was- very open until he looked like the presumptive nominee, at which point he became very cloistered and controlled.  I doubt McCain would give foreign press interviews either,  but really, I guess it's that I'd have less questions to ask.

Chretien was awesome, I mean, some dude broke into his house and he didn't bitch and moan, call me shallow, but one of my requirements deep down is that while the US can take Canada is under 7 seconds, I like the idea that our PM could beat the piss outta the pres is under 5 minutes in a backroom meeting (using soap in a sock so nothing shows), and Trudeau was so awesome, to this day New Yorkers give each other the finger in a constant homage to him and their desire to become Canadians under his rule.

Of course, I would also like to see every parlimentary session end with a grande melee, but *sniffs in sadness* I am resigned that I shall never see Sheila Copps holding the severed arm of Ed Broadbent while howling a viscious warcry.
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