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Canadian seperatists unite!
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Author Topic: Canadian seperatists unite!  (Read 11743 times)
Heq
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« on: July 13, 2008, 23:27:50 EDT »

My name is Chris, I am from the eastern coast of Canada (all of it save PEI).

I'm a conservative, however, my definition of conservative is philosophical rather then political (I don't believe in taking foolish chances and want a stable, lasting society based on equality) I've had the luxury of having my head kicked at multiple summits until it dawned on my that discourse is better then shouting and have been getting soft at the ripe old age of 29.

I don't mind if someone has another view, but I like to point out when views aren't consistent, I apologise in advance as this isn't a personal attack, it's a force of habit.
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« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2008, 03:02:56 EDT »

Welcome to the forum!

You'll find plenty of other Canadians here, although most of us are of the left-leaning sort.
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« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2008, 04:14:32 EDT »

Welcome.

Quote from: Heq
I'm a conservative, however, my definition of conservative is philosophical rather then political
That would make you a Burkean of sorts.
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« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2008, 05:49:07 EDT »

"conservative" and "based on equality"... Interesting combo you have there.

Still, philosophically speaking rather than politically speaking you do have a point - Change for change's sake is just as stupid as keeping the status quo because it is the status quo.
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« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2008, 09:28:33 EDT »

I actually have a mental litmus est to determine wether someone is by nature conservative or progressive.  If, given an event, you consider first the risks, then you are conservative, if instead you consider the opportunities, you are a progressive.  It's quick and dirty, but I find it useful.  I've always found the conservative opposition to equality and attempts to make sure no one person have total power over another to be very strange, as history is full of examples of the dangers of having an elite which must be slavishly obeyed.  Given that no such culture exists now that existed even as short a time as 500 years ago, it's a good arguement that no lasting society can be based on such a premise.
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« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2008, 10:57:30 EDT »

Well, hello. It's always good to meet new people.


Enjoy the forum.
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« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2008, 15:46:27 EDT »

Welcome and have a nice time.
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« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2008, 01:56:15 EDT »

As a curiosity; where would you put someone who refuses to form an opinion without doing both? Or, for a more realistic example, someone who will consider the risks in some situations, and the opportunities in others?

Also; "Canadian separatists" and "conservative"? I can't make that fit together in my head, but that's just me...
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« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2008, 08:58:26 EDT »

Given that no such culture exists now that existed even as short a time as 500 years ago, it's a good arguement that no lasting society can be based on such a premise.
Can any lasting society ever be built?  If it can is that a good thing?
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« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2008, 12:35:06 EDT »

I'm actually not from Canada proper (this is gonna sound a little wibbly to non-Canucks) but I'm from a patriated Newfoundlander family.  My grandfather held to his deathbed that he was not Canadian, and that given the atrocious actions of the British to obtain newfoundland for Canada, there is no reason to swear loyalty to it as a concept.  Unlike Quebec, which has no real economic output to sustain it, the oil boom on the east coast allows maritimers to finally consider the idea of seperating from Canada.  Of course, no one is on the same page (some favour becoming a state, some a country, and some as a protectorate) there is a moevemnt to seperate from Canada.

My conservative attitude causes me to want to retain certain social values and beliefs which make maritimer culture seperate from the rest of Canada (only some of which are optional), such as a distrust for government and a removal of absolute control from the public and private forums.  The best way I see that we can continue to have an identity and a degree of pride is to leave the confederation of Canada.  Yes, I do keep these view quite private, as do most serious seperatists I know, as patriotism and jingoism are currently in fashion.  History shows that scrag cultures are very resiliant, so I think it's just a matter of creating seperation and provincial power bit by bit and then hopefully breaking away at some point.  I think the laws in regards to quebec have created a terrible, racist, sexist monster, and clearly a failure.  As it allows the benefits of a seperate state without facing the moral and financial realities of self-reliance.  Does anyone really think Quebec, were it a soveriegn power, would openly state that people should only be born to French, White families, and that minorities are the cause of social ills?

Of course not, Quebec seperation would probably have been good for Canada and the Quebecois froma  moral standpoint, but economic realities forbade seperation in any meaningful way.  Such is not the case in the far east.

Of course, I would also be against the American Civil War, as I think Slavery was on the way out anyway, and the immense suffering brought to the peoples throughout the states was not worth it, but that's us Conservatives, all cogs and wheels.
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« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2008, 14:42:56 EDT »

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Of course, I would also be against the American Civil War, as I think Slavery was on the way out anyway, and the immense suffering brought to the peoples throughout the states was not worth it, but that's us Conservatives, all cogs and wheels.

The American Civil War wasn't about slavery, it was about power. This was not a war of clashing ideals, it was a war between two political factions with irreconcilable differences, and each one wanted power over the other. The issue that was argued over might have been slavery, but the North wasn't fighting to end it, and the South wasn't fighting to keep it. The argument over slavery was, in essence, a power struggle between the North and South. The North fought to gain control over the South, and the South fought to gain control over the North.

In the grand scheme of things, was it worth it? Of course not. The suffering that war brings is rarely (if ever) worth the gains it is fought for. War is not fought because it is a good way to get something, but because it is sometimes the only way to get something. However, the war was probably inevitable, because both sides were so entrenched in their beliefs that they could not unify with the other in a peaceful matter. No diplomacy would have settled it. And so we went to war.
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« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2008, 22:23:13 EDT »

I'm actually not from Canada proper (this is gonna sound a little wibbly to non-Canucks) but I'm from a patriated Newfoundlander family.  My grandfather held to his deathbed that he was not Canadian, and that given the atrocious actions of the British to obtain newfoundland for Canada, there is no reason to swear loyalty to it as a concept.  Unlike Quebec, which has no real economic output to sustain it, the oil boom on the east coast allows maritimers to finally consider the idea of seperating from Canada.  Of course, no one is on the same page (some favour becoming a state, some a country, and some as a protectorate) there is a moevemnt to seperate from Canada.

My conservative attitude causes me to want to retain certain social values and beliefs which make maritimer culture seperate from the rest of Canada (only some of which are optional), such as a distrust for government and a removal of absolute control from the public and private forums.  The best way I see that we can continue to have an identity and a degree of pride is to leave the confederation of Canada.  Yes, I do keep these view quite private, as do most serious seperatists I know, as patriotism and jingoism are currently in fashion.  History shows that scrag cultures are very resiliant, so I think it's just a matter of creating seperation and provincial power bit by bit and then hopefully breaking away at some point.  I think the laws in regards to quebec have created a terrible, racist, sexist monster, and clearly a failure.  As it allows the benefits of a seperate state without facing the moral and financial realities of self-reliance.  Does anyone really think Quebec, were it a soveriegn power, would openly state that people should only be born to French, White families, and that minorities are the cause of social ills?

Of course not, Quebec seperation would probably have been good for Canada and the Quebecois froma  moral standpoint, but economic realities forbade seperation in any meaningful way.  Such is not the case in the far east.

Of course, I would also be against the American Civil War, as I think Slavery was on the way out anyway, and the immense suffering brought to the peoples throughout the states was not worth it, but that's us Conservatives, all cogs and wheels.

It's funny how all the oil-producing provinces are making noise about separation lately; mainly due to the grossly unfair Atlantic Accord, where lame duck PM Paul Martin caved in to right-wing pressure and promised to exclude the major source of income from those provinces' equalization payments.

Funny, how Ontario carried those provinces' asses for decades when they were dirt-poor, giving equalization payments so that everyone in Canada could have the same quality of life. Funny, how now that provinces like Labrador and Alberta are suddenly swimming in oil profits, they're making noises of wanting to split off, and forgo their responsibility to  Canada now that Ontario is entering "Have-Not" status. Rather than doing their duty in appreciation of all the years they were carried, they're now trying to say "Screw you, Ontario! We're keeping our profits, no matter how bastardly the action is!"

But that is how conservatives and Separatists fits together. "We're better and richer than everyone, and we don't want to help the poor anymore, so we're going to separate from the have-nots".

Incidentally, with all their massive profits, provinces like Labrador and Alberta are still receiving equalization payments from Ontario. Alberta recently just gave a big whack of money to their citizens, because the government was so freaking rich with oil taxes — as poverty continues to grow in other provinces.
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« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2008, 06:29:35 EDT »

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Of course, I would also be against the American Civil War, as I think Slavery was on the way out anyway, and the immense suffering brought to the peoples throughout the states was not worth it, but that's us Conservatives, all cogs and wheels.

The American Civil War wasn't about slavery, it was about power. This was not a war of clashing ideals, it was a war between two political factions with irreconcilable differences, and each one wanted power over the other. The issue that was argued over might have been slavery, but the North wasn't fighting to end it, and the South wasn't fighting to keep it. The argument over slavery was, in essence, a power struggle between the North and South. The North fought to gain control over the South, and the South fought to gain control over the North.

In the grand scheme of things, was it worth it? Of course not. The suffering that war brings is rarely (if ever) worth the gains it is fought for. War is not fought because it is a good way to get something, but because it is sometimes the only way to get something. However, the war was probably inevitable, because both sides were so entrenched in their beliefs that they could not unify with the other in a peaceful matter. No diplomacy would have settled it. And so we went to war.
I think it could have been mostly avoided by negotiation.  You are wrong though about the situation before the civil war, both sides did not really want power over each other.  It was the power of federal government that was the issue.  It is only a "civil" war in retrospect, the US then was a much looser comglomeration before it.

Much of the issue though was about trade and taxation.  In the decades after independence trade in the US had a general pattern to it.  The US and Canada exported food and raw materials such as cotton to Europe.  Europe then exported small manufacturing goods and some luxury items to the US.

In the early 19th century the Northern states of the US grew manufacturing industry.  The government "protected" this industry by tariffing imported goods, which were mainly manufactured goods from Europe.  This naturally made exportation of goods difficult for businesses in Europe, and caused them to engage in protectionist measures against the US in retaliation.

Federal government was milking the South.  The people of the South had to pay artificially high prices for imported goods to further the interests of the North.  And these same tariffs damaged their ability to export their own goods.
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« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2008, 10:04:50 EDT »

Hmmm...My civil war history really isn't as good as it should be, but I was just looking to undercut the normal historical claim for a justification, thanks for the added 411.

Darke, I must say I disagree with you, first of all factually, as Newfoundland does not recieve equalization payments, and secondly, and more importantly, as a historical matter of course.  There has long been a Vive la Terre Neuve Libre, which, while poor french, even has a long standing flag.  It has become more popular as time has passed and a real possibility of seperation has presented itself, but the east coast liberationists have been around pretty much since the inception.

I don't know where in Canuckland you're from, but the Celtic(Irish, Welsh, Scottish)/English divide is an old and ugly one out here.  Made even worst by the fact that the churches in newfoundland were in charge of schooling until very recently.  Canada did not make good on many of the promises made to most of the atlantic provinces during confereration, but I would put the real cultural differences as caused by the poor airliner service and general lack of travel on the east.  The farthest many of my friends have been is Montreal, and to be honest, many of us who travle to bigger, more western centres find them rather disgusting.  I'm not sure if it's so much cultural as small town versus big city (personally, I like Toronto, but I find it to be too legalistic and yuppy for my tastes).

I cannot disagree that the seperatists generally see themselves as better, and to a large degree, I agree with that assertion, as I think loyalty to a country to be generally a very bad thing, and loyalty to a monarch to be utterly disgusting.  Any man or woman who bows to another makes themselves lesser, and no man or woman shuld bow to the Queen or her representatives, especially when one looks at the english empire and all the evil it has caused.

I would also add that generally speaking, big countries with authoritarian rule (as we have during a majority government), while very efficent, are also often the most opaque, and opaque,k powerful governments end up...*looks south*  It can end up in some very nasty situations.
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« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2008, 10:25:26 EDT »

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I don't know where in Canuckland you're from, but the Celtic(Irish, Welsh, Scottish)/English divide is an old and ugly one out here.

Oh, you have that one too.  Lovely isn't it? there's something so dark age about it.  At least it leads to an understanding of sarcasm I suppose.

I live in Ireland, which is interesting in this sort of regard, especially if you're English as I am.
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