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wednesday, august 24, 2005
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Author Topic: wednesday, august 24, 2005  (Read 10376 times)
Bringerofpie
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« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2008, 20:40:15 EST »

Interesting fact about Jesus, he was supposed to be from the house of David, like his father, Joseph, who was not his father.
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« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2008, 20:45:54 EST »

Interesting fact about Jesus, he was supposed to be from the house of David, like his father, Joseph, who was not his father.

While I'm not sure about Joseph, but the his claim of the house of David comes from his Mother
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« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2008, 00:02:07 EST »

mmm... incest.

Yes, Joseph was supposed to be of the house of David. This is because the messiah was supposed to be the son of the son of... of David. But wasn't, apparently.
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« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2008, 00:13:35 EST »

mmm... incest.

Yes, Joseph was supposed to be of the house of David. This is because the messiah was supposed to be the son of the son of... of David. But wasn't, apparently.

you forget get Jew count linage down the mother's line.  Also both being of the house of David is not the same thing as incest, as you can be second cousins or grater and still be of the same house.
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« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2008, 06:30:47 EST »

It's at least worth a round of "dueling banjos". Also: Luke 1:27.
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And if i catch you comin' back my way
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And that ain't what you want to hear
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-- "Seven Nation Army", The White Stripes

So what you're telling me is that LTV's fudge factor means more than it's independent variable?
Yes...
rogue-kun
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« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2008, 14:02:26 EST »

It's at least worth a round of "dueling banjos". Also: Luke 1:27.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davidic_line
Quote from: wikipedia
Also, the New Testament lists two different genealogies for Jesus, one at the beginning of Matthew and one in Luke 3:23-38. Matthew says "A was the father of B, B was the father of C", etc. Luke, however, uses a word that can mean either "biological son" or "descendant", in the form "C was the son of B, who was the son of A". Matthew shows a lineage from David, father of Solomon and Luke shows a lineage through Nathan, a son of David. A common explanation offered by Christian biblical scholars is that Matthew is stating Joseph's line and Luke is stating Mary's line. Under this interpretation, Jesus would be a biological descendant of David through his mother. It is often this descent that is depicted in the Tree of Jesse subject in art, which usually shows Mary but rarely Joseph.

dueling bango is great peice of music Cool so i will never dine you the optunity to play it Cool
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Bringerofpie
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« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2008, 17:56:12 EST »

mmm... incest.

Yes, Joseph was supposed to be of the house of David. This is because the messiah was supposed to be the son of the son of... of David. But wasn't, apparently.

you forget get Jew count linage down the mother's line.  Also both being of the house of David is not the same thing as incest, as you can be second cousins or grater and still be of the same house.

Not true. Jews get their religion from the mother. Other than that, it's a very patriarchal culture.
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« Reply #22 on: March 03, 2008, 21:48:23 EST »

Yes, Joseph was supposed to be of the house of David. This is because the messiah was supposed to be the son of the son of... of David. But wasn't, apparently.

you forget get Jew count linage down the mother's line.

Only national lineage, things like house used paternal lineage.

Besides, both of the two conflicting genealogies are quite clearly traced through Joseph to David by a purely male line.


The Gospels do a lot of desperate dredging up of Old Testament prophecy, much of which had nothing to do with any messiah.
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« Reply #23 on: April 13, 2008, 17:36:01 EDT »

The lineage of Joseph and Mary was given for the ultra-conservative Jews who believed that the Messiah MUST be of Davidic descent.  Mary and Joseph were related, but so are ALL Jews.  Technically.  I think they may have been cousins--but that only sounds weird to us because we aren't from the Middle East in 1 B.C.

The Gospels were written to convince people of Christ and his message.  It's true that Jesus himself had no actual direct genetic link to Joseph, but he was still of Davidic descent through Mary.

Finally, Jesus was Joseph's adopted son--and that made him legitimate heir to all rights, privileges, lineage, and blessings that he would have inherited were he actually Joseph's son.

The entirety of the Old Testament is focused on the Messiah and his people throughout history.  Every prophet to be included testified of Christ (possibly excepting the Song of Solomon).  We don't have all of their writings and teachings, mostly because we have no primary sources--and all of the secondary sources range from "very tenuous" to "extremely suspicious."

The most telling point about this is that several times in the Gospels, prophets and prophecies are quoted which the audience is expected to know about--but they never appear in the Old Testament.  The Bible as a historical record is incomplete; it contains the Gospel of Jesus Christ, not an accurate historiological record.
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« Reply #24 on: April 13, 2008, 20:45:17 EDT »

Quick point on said gospels; it's (conspiratorially?) theorised that the Gnostic Texts originally included the Gospel of Jesus Christ himself. The council of Nicea didn't think that his take on things could be used for control, though, and thus were decried as a forgery. The Catholic church is supposed to still have a copy.

Even if this isn't true, though, the bible isn't the gospel of Jesus, just that of his mates.
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And if i catch you comin' back my way
I'm gonna serve it to you
And that ain't what you want to hear
But that's what I'll do
-- "Seven Nation Army", The White Stripes

So what you're telling me is that LTV's fudge factor means more than it's independent variable?
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« Reply #25 on: April 13, 2008, 21:00:02 EDT »

Quick point on said gospels; it's (conspiratorially?) theorised that the Gnostic Texts originally included the Gospel of Jesus Christ himself. The council of Nicea didn't think that his take on things could be used for control, though, and thus were decried as a forgery. The Catholic church is supposed to still have a copy.

Even if this isn't true, though, the bible isn't the gospel of Jesus, just that of his mates.

You mean The Sayings of Jesus? The Gospel that it is believed all the others were based upon, and simply contains quotes from Jesus? I forget what that was actually called, but I believe they've found it, yeah.
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« Reply #26 on: April 13, 2008, 21:13:10 EDT »

I'm pretty sure that's it. Although I thought it involved a little more than just quotes.
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And if i catch you comin' back my way
I'm gonna serve it to you
And that ain't what you want to hear
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So what you're telling me is that LTV's fudge factor means more than it's independent variable?
Yes...
Gizensha
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« Reply #27 on: April 13, 2008, 21:14:40 EDT »

Well, I believe according to the introduction, understanding all >100 of them is/was a/the key to heaven.
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rwpikul
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« Reply #28 on: April 14, 2008, 15:46:08 EDT »

The lineage of Joseph and Mary was given for the ultra-conservative Jews who believed that the Messiah MUST be of Davidic descent.

Except that both linages are through Joseph:

Matthew 1:6-16 gives:
   1. David
   2. Solomon
   3. Roboam
   4. Abia
   5. Asa
   6. Josaphat
   7. Joram
   8. Ozias
   9. Joatham
  10. Achaz
  11. Ezekias
  12. Manasses
  13. Amon
  14. Josias
  15. Jechonias
  16. Salathiel
  17. Zorobabel
  18. Abiud
  19. Eliakim
  20. Azor
  21. Sadoc
  22. Achim
  23. Eliud
  24. Eleazar
  25. Matthan
  26. Jacob
  27. Joseph
  28. Jesus

Luke 3:21-31 gives:   
   1. David
   2. Nathan
   3. Mattatha
   4. Menan
   5. Melea
   6. Eliakim
   7. Jonan
   8. Joseph
   9. Juda
  10. Simeon
  11. Levi
  12. Matthat
  13. Jorim
  14. Eliezer
  15. Jose
  16. Er
  17. Elmodam
  18. Cosam
  19. Addi
  20. Melchi
  21. Neri
  22. Salathiel
  23. Zorobabel
  24. Rhesa
  25. Joanna
  26. Juda
  27. Joseph
  28. Semei
  29. Mattathias
  30. Maath
  31. Nagge
  32. Esli
  33. Naum
  34. Amos
  35. Mattathias
  36. Joseph
  37. Janna
  38. Melchi
  39. Levi
  40. Matthat
  41. Heli
  42. Joseph
  43. Jesus

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Chakat Firepaw - Inventor & Scientist (Mad)
Bringerofpie
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« Reply #29 on: April 14, 2008, 16:13:18 EDT »

The lineage of Joseph and Mary was given for the ultra-conservative Jews who believed that the Messiah MUST be of Davidic descent.

Except that both linages are through Joseph:
...


Which brings me back to the original point: Was Jesus actually descended from the house of David? If God's your father, but you're not from the house of David, you can't be the messiah under Jewish law.
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